Cargo & Industry fixes for 1.06

[Gumboots]

Just realized that the 1.06 Electronics cargo has a start year of 1900, but the Electronics Plant has a start year of 1910. This was likely an over-sight, but there is an advantage: the demand for Electronics is already strong by the time that the Electronics Plant is seeded/buildable by the player.

This leads to a question: what if any production chain producing a new cargo was set to start 3 years after the cargo start date?

It's perfectly rational, but TBH I don't see it making any difference to game play. Players simply won't (or shouldn't) build an industry until it is going to turn a profit. It will only affect random seeding, and I've never noticed that to be a problem.

[RulerofRails]

More thoughts on this. For Cheese, Toys, Furniture, and probably Electronics this idea does make some sense. Although it may remove a pitfall for the casual player, there is less skill needed by advanced players. Would seem to be more realistic.

However, the idea breaks when one considers new resources. In order to have any demand for Rubber on the map, there must be a Tire Factory. If the map has the Weapons Factory enabled, then you might have a demand for Tires in certain places, but most of the time you want to use Tires in the Auto Factory. Bauxite and Uranium also will not have any demand if their are no factories that demand them. So those industries would have to activate at the same time as the cargo start date. BROKEN!

Most advanced players will short-circuit the regular "building demand" period (couple of years as seen in the pre-game simulation) by placing industries where resources are produced, and with 1.06 this can also be partially short-circuited by shipping-at-a-loss to the new location. So sounds like this is attempting to patch an issue that most players are already playing around.

I think the nail in the coffin for this idea is that if a recipe for a yet-to-be-discovered cargo is present in the ports, production will activate at the cargo start date. This is actually the main place that cargoes can be spewed onto the map in a deep red zone.

Now, this idea could be used in some sort of mod, but for a larger picture patch it's out. Sorry to waste your time with it.

[Gumboots]

I had a thought about the borked 1.06 stuff, particularly the furnace. I'm not going to bother with a hundred and fifty page thread wherein everyone argues for their own ideas that haven't been tested. Next time I feel like it, I will simply split the furnace into two likely suspects, edit the map to suit, and play the result. See what happens. Make whatever other changes seem like the best option. Play again.

This means no arguments, and no problem with backwards compatibility. I, or anyone else, can make their own private "1.07" and try it out to see if it really is an improvement. I suggest this is, realistically, the only way we're ever likely to see usable results here. If someone comes up with a really good solution, other people can adopt it as they see fit.

[CeeBee]

Out of the frying pan and into the furnace. Works for me

[Just Crazy Jim]

After tampering with the files (far too much tampering, honestly) for my 1804 mod, it's become pretty clear to me that the game's economy is a bit fragile.

In adding oil availability to the map starting in 1800, there was negligible impact. There's only the background noise demand of housing for it as things come out of the box. When I added a slight demand for oil to the factories (0.1 per year), there was just a microscopic change. Pretty much as I suspected because Oil (until electric plants and oil refineries appear) is a dead-end product.

Compared against what I saw demonstrated from adding fertilizer as a fractional output for Cattle Ranch, Dairy Farm, and Sheep Station. The effects were far-reaching and not beneficial. Within a very short time, perhaps 10 years on average, the accumulated effects led to massive over-production of both primary cargoes and processed cargoes. Even the Tycoonauts legendary thirst for alcohol was dwarfed by the availability of the product. I had massive pile-ups of Alcohol, Cheese, Clothing, Meat at hubs and the price map was so flat that there was literally no station on the map that had a price difference that made hauling them profitable.

When I tampered with the date on Weapons, I used Ports to create a demand for them. Which seemed a controlled experiment. Seemed. The truth was rather uncontrolled. Ports demanded weapons and logs, supplied oil (whale oil) and cotton (seal fur). It seemed reasonable enough. However by having the Ports demand both Logs and Weapons (which has logs in its production chain), I created a sort of China Syndrome in the basic economy of the map. I didn't fully recognize there was a problem until the price for Furniture was over $610 and had to review everything on the map to track down the root cause. To correct it, I removed the demand for Weapons from ports and ran the map again. Things ran in a familiar pattern after that change. I tried again with the demand for logs removed and the demand for weapons restored. Things were a bit choppy as Furniture Factories and Weapon Factories competed for lumber, but no where as bad as when both Logs and Weapons had been demanded.

When I changed the output for Corn Farms, Grain Farms, and Rice Farms to all be "Grain" and changed the transforms and demands in other buildings accordingly, the net result was similar, albeit nowhere as bad, as when I added fertilizer as an output to animal farms.

RoR and Gumboots both gave me a warning about mucking about in the game economy, which I promptly ignored. I learned my lesson. I now accept that even the smallest changes to the game economy require careful consideration.

I believe with some additional work, probably far more than I want to believe, any one of these "mad genius ideas" could be made to work. Mistakes teach us more than successes. So I will keep tampering and if I accidentally have a success, let us hope I have made enough mistakes to double, triple, and quadruple check my work.

And now, this:

TankA.jpg

Rough idea, but getting there.

I was told by the chair of the Chesapeake & Ohio Railroad History Society that "milk was handled as express" and "carried in the baggage car in milk cans until some time after the First World War". He couldn't say with any certainty when the first milk tanker appeared on C&O rails, but he guessed it was in the mid 1930s. he did have some photos of ice-cooled box cars that were exclusively for milk from about 1900 (+/- 5 years). He also told me that there had not been a milk run on any part of the CSX network (that covers about 1/3 of the USA) in his lifetime. As best he could recall, the last milk run on the C&O was in 1956.

As far as he ever knew, until World War 2, only petroleum and petroleum distillates and hazardous/flammable liquids were carried in steel tankers as seen in RT3. He had a photo of a special rail car for Nitroglycerine, but none of milk tankers. But he allowed that Orange Juice and the similar might have been carried in steel tanks on other lines, but he'd never even seen a photo of such a tanker.

This corroborates what I read on Wikipedia (Milk Car link).

So, I figure that from 1800-1900, oil is the only in-game liquid cargo that might legitimately use a "tanker". Milk could legitimately use a (special refrigerated) tanker from 1900 until 1950, but after that milk tankers should go the way of the dodo and dinosaur, because (at least in the USA) they ceased to appear on rails in the 1950-1960 period.

I guess I have a new project... another one... again...

[Gumboots]

Compared against what I saw demonstrated from adding fertilizer as a fractional output for Cattle Ranch, Dairy Farm, and Sheep Station. The effects were far-reaching and not beneficial. Within a very short time, perhaps 10 years on average, the accumulated effects led to massive over-production of both primary cargoes and processed cargoes.

I can think of various options here, if you want to try them. For a start, most scenarios only run 25 years. If you find a solution that's stable over thirty years, that would be good enough for most people most of the time.

The next obvious thing is changing the fractional outputs to be lower, but I don't know how low you had them. Maybe they we minimal already. If that is the case, then the next thing to try is only have fertiliser coming out of some animal farms, instead of all. For game purposes that would be perfectly acceptable, IMO.

When I tampered with the date on Weapons, I used Ports to create a demand for them. Which seemed a controlled experiment. Seemed. The truth was rather uncontrolled. Ports demanded weapons and logs, supplied oil (whale oil) and cotton (seal fur). It seemed reasonable enough. However by having the Ports demand both Logs and Weapons (which has logs in its production chain), I created a sort of China Syndrome in the basic economy of the map. I didn't fully recognize there was a problem until the price for Furniture was over $610 and had to review everything on the map to track down the root cause. To correct it, I removed the demand for Weapons from ports and ran the map again. Things ran in a familiar pattern after that change. I tried again with the demand for logs removed and the demand for weapons restored. Things were a bit choppy as Furniture Factories and Weapon Factories competed for lumber, but no where as bad as when both Logs and Weapons had been demanded.

Options here: Set the ports to demand lumber instead of logs. I know that in reality shipyards often had their own mills on site, but this isn't reality so we have to work with what we have. To represent harpoons and general ironwork for ships, you could use Goods. That's made from iron in the relevant period. If the map as a whole still has too much competition for lumber, either tweak the logging camps for increased output or turn up the editor sliders for their seeding in some territories.

What you'll find with RT3 is that if you want something specific in a scenario, you'll have to design the whole map economy to suit and then check it for balance and playability with a range of seedings.

And now, this:

TankA.jpg

Rough idea, but getting there.

I was told by the chair of the Chesapeake & Ohio Railroad History Society that "milk was handled as express" and "carried in the baggage car in milk cans until some time after the First World War". He couldn't say with any certainty when the first milk tanker appeared on C&O rails, but he guessed it was in the mid 1930s. he did have some photos of ice-cooled box cars that were exclusively for milk from about 1900 (+/- 5 years). He also told me that there had not been a milk run on any part of the CSX network (that covers about 1/3 of the USA) in his lifetime. As best he could recall, the last milk run on the C&O was in 1956.

As far as he ever knew, until World War 2, only petroleum and petroleum distillates and hazardous/flammable liquids were carried in steel tankers as seen in RT3. He had a photo of a special rail car for Nitroglycerine, but none of milk tankers. But he allowed that Orange Juice and the similar might have been carried in steel tanks on other lines, but he'd never even seen a photo of such a tanker.

This corroborates what I read on Wikipedia (Milk Car link).

So, I figure that from 1800-1900, oil is the only in-game liquid cargo that might legitimately use a "tanker". Milk could legitimately use a (special refrigerated) tanker from 1900 until 1950, but after that milk tankers should go the way of the dodo and dinosaur, because (at least in the USA) they ceased to appear on rails in the 1950-1960 period.

I guess I have a new project... another one... again...

The early tanker looks fine. I'd use a 16 sided tub for the first LOD, dropping back to four sided on the third LOD. Shouldn't need more than 3 for such a simple car.

And yes, your friend is right. I already knew this. That's why in my revamped cargo scale milk is going to be carried in reefers, and why they are one of the lightest freight cars. It might have been carried just in the baggage car on some lines, but in the US milk was often carried in special reefers that were fitted with trucks suitable for high speed. This car often carried the standard passenger car livery, and was usually at the head of the train just behind the tender. This was a good place for it as it kept the passengers a bit further from the general mess of a steam engine (not good for white shirts, etc).

The UK was different in that they used small four wheel tankers, but these were still treated as express. And of course some US companies (Borden's is a good example) used tankers from the '30's onwards. At the moment I'm just going to put milk in general reefers along with alcohol, cheese, meat and produce (and medicine for 1.06) but I do intend to skin up specific milk cars later.

Since a cargo has to stay in the game once production is commenced, it's not possible to have an end date on rail shipment of milk. Again, this is RT3, not real life. You could use an event to cut milk production 100% after a certain date but that would mean all dairy farms going out of business, along with dairy processors, and a consequent complete lack of milk and cheese anywhere on your map.

[RulerofRails]

A glut of cargo produced at the crop farms once new fertilizer sources are added doesn't surprise me. I hinted (probably too subtlely) at it here, but I think you need to add a new lower ratio Fertilizer->Grain/Cotton/etc. conversion to cover the "natural" Fertilizer period that is only active during that timeframe.

As far as I can tell, PopTop kept the default conversions high enough so that the Fertilizer conversion is profitable in the majority of situations (even quite sub-optimal). This was the problem I faced with the proposed Machinery->Iron/Coal/etc. conversions to simulate a boost in mine production when supplied with Machinery. I ended up adding an additional "sink" demand only function that would take say 0.5 loads of Machinery per year, so I could have a fair amount of Machinery consumed, and still maintain decent profitability in most conditions. Well, that was the idea. I never tested it thoroughly enough to be happy with the settings though, and for sure this idea also has an impact on the economy. In the end, more resources will be produced, which can be converted to more end-products which may also cause a glut on the map. So wouldn't necessarily be a good idea for existing maps.

[Cash on Wheels]

Ive learned don't bother changing the production levels of factories. I bet they had a Huge beta test to sort all of that out.

[Gumboots]

Hey does anyone have a list of all 1.06 industry demands and supplies? Not just a qualitative flow chart (already have that) but a complete quantitative breakdown.

Edit: Nevermind. I decided to make a spreadsheet for myself. Mostly sorted now.
I must say it's a bit of an eye-opener. I hadn't realised all the implications of the 1.06 industry chains. The prices and outputs often don't seem to make a lot of sense.

For example, the Electronics Plant has a base output of 4 loads/year, but it costs $2,800k to build. For comparison, the default PopTop Steel Mill costs $2,700k but will produce 10 loads of Steel per year. The Machine Shop produces 6 loads/year and only costs $1,900k, and the demand for Machinery is much higher than the demand for Electronics. Looked at this way, it's no wonder the Electronics Plant is something people hardly ever bother with. It makes much more sense to ignore it and invest in other industries.

The 1.06 Concrete Plant will put out 8 loads/year for a build cost of only $1,800k. The Furnace will produce 8 loads for only $1,200k build cost.

The Pharmaceutical Plant is well-known to be difficult or impossible to run, due to the lack of Chemicals on most maps and the low demand for Medicine. It's usually better to put any Chemicals into making Fertilizer, or possibly Weapons. If keeping the Pharma Plant, it would probably be sensible to halve the output and halve the build cost, just to have more usable unit.

Oh yes, and I had a thought about Crystals. Given that the only use for it is late era Electronics, it would have made sense to set up the Quarry BCA so it didn't produce Crystals until there was a factory to take them.

[Gumboots]

I have a basic "get my head around this" spreadsheet set up.
Lists all 1.06 cargoes and industries, and gives all demands and supplies, with quantities where those are known.
AFAIK there are no known quantities for production and demand of express cargoes, since those are locked into the.exe.

Edit: Updated version in this post.