{NEW BETA} fix/update South Central British Columbia 1898

[RulerofRails]

Didn't see anything about it when I hooked up Grand Forks, but then it wasn't hooked up all way way back to Whatchmacallit Thingy with the port and sawmill.

It's triggered by # of track pieces, so this explains quite easily why you didn't see it. That's changeable for sure. I can check for any connection in that area. Should be better.

What is worth mentioning is that the ruddy thing steals your stash of track. 10 units in December is all very well, but if you have 20 units left at the end of November guess what happens? Or if you have 74 units left at the end of September. This is not a good look, IMO, when you are expecting people to bulk order, at a premium price, in advance. Instead of "reset their stash of track to some piddling amount which will really get up their noses" I think it would be better to "add this month's allowance to whatever they already have" unless they already have heaps. 75 units isn't heaps anyway. It barely gets you out the door of the pub and halfway to the nearest phone box.

There is no carry-over at month end. However, your stockpile (this is Game Variable 4) will be credited with the un-laid track. This checks to the nearest 10 units. So you are right you do lose a little, you would lose 4 if you end the month with 74. At month end GV4 will be increased by +70. The events at the start of month use SET to allocate track for that month. As always, probably the rounding errors can be improved.

If Game Variable 4 is a bit confusing in the events that's because JSS did a dual use. GV4>20 also indicates that you aren't just looking around. He was ambitious with this one. This is where any mention of an "reserve for emergencies" comes in: you can't "use" the last 20 pieces. If there isn't more than 95 at the start of a summer build month, you wont get the 75 untis for that month, but instead will get a message to buy emergency supplies. If you really run out of track in the stockpile (GV4) you will get the offer to buy emergency supplies.

From your comments I think at the very least there needs to be a more detailed explanation of the track laying. I could add to the ledger the expected monthly allocation as well. The caveat here is that events like weather (and quite a few more like theft/visit etc. that are likely to only trigger on the normal path) may reduce or increase this amount in a given month. Some months you can end up with 125 and another maybe only 30 for example.

The bank is a good one to merge early, and the sawmill/logging camp/weird yellow icon with bloodshot eyes company pays out massive dividends early in the game. Can't get a majority of stock early on, but the dividends are a good thing anyway.

You used to be able to take the logging company over. I gave George F. Train majority ownership now. He isn't good at trading stocks: it's very hard to shake him out. But if I turn on issuing stocks again, if the company has a more average first year it might issue stock and then you can get that majority.

By the way, with the elections thing I got a good guess one year and took the "wait and see what they offer" option. Got a newspaper telling me Sir Something Hincks (I think) would be going to court and would have some of his stock shaken loose. The court case went ahead, and he got a prison sentence, but his stock holdings remained exactly the same. This didn't bother me since I wasn't interested in any of his stock at the time, but I thought it was odd.

Ok. What should have happened here is that his cash was set to negative 40% of his current stock value. His margin would be close enough that you could probably arrange some shorts to get him to a tipping point where he is margin-called. I found that if I was too aggressive with the setting and made him bankrupt immediately the other AI chairmen will be buying up all the cheap shares and you can't get any advantage in ownership this way. For the record I tried at month end. I could experiment with setting this to the end of the first week in the month, I'm not sure if he will margin call until the end of the month though. But at least the other AI chairmen will only try to buy then, and you would have a chance against them.

There is the option to disable said player - remove him from the game at that point: all his shares get returned to public investors. Even though I put a lot of effort into the current setup, this would be simpler and perhaps more balanced compared to the other bonus offers. Would that have made more sense to you?

[RulerofRails]

Ok. I'm thinking something like this for the "opt-out of historic" option (please let me know your thoughts):
80 per month, excess carried over month end, from April to November.

At the end of November any remaining track is put in your stockpile, so you can't use it over winter. If you have more than 100 unused units at the start of November you will get a reminder that the track-laying season is about to end.

The trigger will be moved forward to 1901. You will get the option to automatically pre-order at a cost of $300k per year, payable at the start of the year. If you have more than a year's worth of track in your stockpile you wont be charged/get more track that year.

When pre-ordering, if you don't have the money over the end of the year this will delay delivery on your track. As soon as you have the money the order will go through. But you will miss some months = less construction.


I believe the stockpile was implemented to prevent the player going too far off course on the main path, so it is here for a purpose. However, I feel like it's a bit awkward in the second set of official connections too. JSS coded it to wait for next year if you try an option for which you don't have enough track. This delay feels wrong. Then again, most of the track available in late game wasn't allowed back then either. Whereas I put more focus on being able to double track etc., and take more advantage of the rest of the map in the typical play period. Time seems to go quite quickly for me on this map. It's probably influenced by the long distance haulage, especially Coal.

PS. I optimized the events that save unused track to the stockpile. They will (1) not have anymore rounding error, and (2) also work to save large quantities of track in November as may be the case with the above system.

[Gumboots]

There is no carry-over at month end. However, your stockpile (this is Game Variable 4) will be credited with the un-laid track. This checks to the nearest 10 units. So you are right you do lose a little, you would lose 4 if you end the month with 74. At month end GV4 will be increased by +70. The events at the start of month use SET to allocate track for that month. As always, probably the rounding errors can be improved.

If Game Variable 4 is a bit confusing in the events that's because JSS did a dual use. GV4>20 also indicates that you aren't just looking around. He was ambitious with this one. This is where any mention of an "reserve for emergencies" comes in: you can't "use" the last 20 pieces. If there isn't more than 95 at the start of a summer build month, you wont get the 75 untis for that month, but instead will get a message to buy emergency supplies. If you really run out of track in the stockpile (GV4) you will get the offer to buy emergency supplies.

This doesn't make sense to me. Did you mean that if there is more than 95?
I regularly had less than 95 at a month's end but never received any messages about buying emergency supplies. And I regularly used up every last section of track, simply because there was so little of it anyway.

By the way, with the elections thing I got a good guess one year and took the "wait and see what they offer" option. Got a newspaper telling me Sir Something Hincks (I think) would be going to court and would have some of his stock shaken loose. The court case went ahead, and he got a prison sentence, but his stock holdings remained exactly the same. This didn't bother me since I wasn't interested in any of his stock at the time, but I thought it was odd.

Ok. What should have happened here is that his cash was set to negative 40% of his current stock value.

I checked his holdings after the newspaper, but he still had positive personal cash. Not much, but some. So there was no chance of forcing him into a margin call anyway. The event might not be working properly. If he had been that easy a target for shorting I would have given it a go just for something to do.

[Gumboots]

Ok. I'm thinking something like this for the "opt-out of historic" option (please let me know your thoughts):
80 per month, excess carried over month end, from April to November.

At the end of November any remaining track is put in your stockpile, so you can't use it over winter. If you have more than 100 unused units at the start of November you will get a reminder that the track-laying season is about to end.

Unlikely to be a problem. Thinking about this from a strategy player's point of view: there's no point laying track that gets you nowhere. It's just additional expense to lay and to maintain while you wait for enough track to finish the job. Pointless waste of time. For example, in strategic terms it only makes sense to connect from Whatever West (near Castlegar) over to Grand Forks if you have enough track to do the whole lot. Until you have that much track, it makes more sense to just stockpile it.

And it's much easier to figure out where you are up to if you can lay a good stretch of track. If you need 1,200 to do the whole job and can lay down 300 at once, it's easy to do that temporarily, take a look at the results and do a bit of calculating in your head, then know where you are up to. You can't really do that with 70 or 80 pieces, because it's just too fragmented to get a good idea.

Now I realise the creeping caterpillar thing is the whole point of this scenario, but if you are going to provide an opt out then IMO it should be an opt out that works as such. Take the option at the start of the game to "have a look around". That gives you insane amounts of cash and a totally ludicrous roster of available locomotives. Why not drop that malarkey? It's useless for getting an idea of how the scenario plays anyway. Instead just provide the non-historical option, with unlimited track stockpiling allowed and with no monthly restriction outside winter. That way if someone doesn't want to play caterpillar they can still get a feel for the actual scenario without being driven nuts and without having to scroll past 50 future locos to find a 1900 one.

The trigger will be moved forward to 1901. You will get the option to automatically pre-order at a cost of $300k per year, payable at the start of the year. If you have more than a year's worth of track in your stockpile you wont be charged/get more track that year.

When pre-ordering, if you don't have the money over the end of the year this will delay delivery on your track. As soon as you have the money the order will go through. But you will miss some months = less construction.

Sounds reasonable. Except for the last bit. You're still planning on enforcing the caterpillar thing, aren't you?

[RulerofRails]

About the emergency track we are talking value of Game Variable 4 and not Company Track Pieces Buildable. My memory wasn't quite accurate either. When I looked this is the actual trigger (GV<125.)

Emergency track.jpg

Basically Company Variable 4 indicates the particular construction project or specific mode/state (sometimes it's waiting for a track shipment) you are in. The mode that you were running in should be CV4=21 or CV4=22 when waiting for ordered track. If it's not, then something else went wrong.

I will double check the Hicks event, but maybe it doesn't matter because I now set this event to disable the player in question instead. He will disappear from the game entirely.

Well, I was thinking of it as 8 months * 80 units = 640 units total per year. You could wait till November and build all 640 at once if you wanted to. My plan didn't go so far as to carry the active figure over to the first build month of the next year (that is what you are looking for?). I can add an extra event and extend the accurate size of the stockpile to 2047 units (more if I sacrifice some accuracy to rounding). To restore the stockpile after winter immediately to full size (transfer the value from GV4 -> Company Track Buildable) would take 5-6 new events (I would tolerate more rounding here).

PS. In look-around mode you only get the H10 as an extra loco now. In my mind this option is for players who aren't really serious but want to tinker on the map anyway. No medals are available in that mode.

[Gumboots]

My is if somebody wants to just look around the map without playing seriously they can just open it as a sandbox. That's what sandbox is for, so I don't really see any need to provide a faux sandbox option in a scenario map. Especially when it's one as complex as this and the events are a nightmare to keep track of anyway. Your call though.

Basically Company Variable 4 indicates the particular construction project or specific mode/state (sometimes it's waiting for a track shipment) you are in. The mode that you were running in should be CV4=21 or CV4=22 when waiting for ordered track. If it's not, then something else went wrong.

I can't check it now as I deleted the save, but will take another look at it.

640 per year, with no restriction outside winter, sounds fine. That will definitely solve the problem. I don't think it's necessary to allow more than that. I was mainly thinking it would be good to let people get a good idea of where they are up to when it comes to things like the required connection to Midway. If they have a good stash of track units to play with they will be able to work out how they are going relative to the time limit. Having to lay it all by the end of November, and then getting more track in February or whatever, would mean not much wasted time and money.

You could have a message along the lines of "If you don't lay your yearly track allowance before December, you will lose chairmanship. It's a railway, and the punters expect you to lay track". If you take chairmanship away the problem is permanently solved. They can't finangle another chairmanship at all, so it's a pretty good incentive to lay track.

You could allow a bit of leeway, around 20 units or whatever you think is good, but basically force people to lay the vast majority of the track they have. It fits with a story line too, because in reality a company wouldn't remove a stockpile of track. They'd just remove a non-performing manager.

[RulerofRails]

Where this mode has an advantage over sandbox is that it's possible to see how the industrial price maps fit the topography and the flows of cargo which is some determinate in how industrial companies will work. I have no idea how the AI behave in sandbox mode. I never experimented with it much at all. Maybe I should investigate a little.

Ok. I kind of like your idea just to throw the player out of the company if you don't lay the track. The catch would be what would happen if you accidentally run out of cash one year? Strategically I don't mind the idea to require operating with some cash reserves, but players will probably feel it unfair if they don't get a heads up about it. Any suggestion for that?

[Gumboots]

I suppose throwing them out might be a bit savage. At least for a first offence. Maybe have it so if they don't lay at least half their track they don't get any the year after. Sort of like "You're not getting any dessert until you eat your vegetables".

[JSS]

Hi Folks
You most certainly are going to town with this map. It seems that great progress is being made. I must admit however that most of the conversations you have are way over my head.
Just a couple of points I like to make:
The pace of tracklaying was based on the actual connection dates and as such was meant to duplicate what actually happened. That means that to stockpile more track than you can lay down in a month or year is or should be of no value. Caterpillar tracklaying it might be but to me it was a more realistic replay of the real events.
There also was very little double tracking on the whole line so there should be no need for lots of extra track except for what is needed for the main connections.
Keep up the great work.
JSS

[RulerofRails]

JSS, we were talking about the historical pace of track laying in the threads, so I think it's a natural thing for a player (Gumboots) not knowing the ins-and-outs of the map to think that the in-game option "I have other plans" might perhaps allow greater track-laying freedom. I had made a change to allow some track-laying in this mode (after 5 or so years), but it used the same system (allocation from stockpile) that was regulated monthly. And as I understand it, this was exactly the "historical pace" element that he was attempting to avoid.

With the more recent discussion I was leaning towards having a yearly quota in the "opt-out" path. It would still result in a similar amount of track being laid over time just that it could be done in the less micro-heavy style of 1 or 2 builds per year. But there is still a big price to pay for this mode, the MAJORITY of events can never be triggered. Including no points from connections, no chance for connection rewards, etc.., so it's not a lie that major stock-plays are still needed.


RT3 is a game that relies a lot on re-hauling for haulage profit. You will haul the same consumer cargo multiple times to make profit. Most cargo actually rots rather than being consumed. My favorite thing about this map is the economic setup, the role the railway plays in that and the minimization of re-hauling inherit. Maybe you didn't do it on purpose, but I played a lot of hours on literally hundreds of maps and this map is in my opinion a stand-out for low re-hauling. It's hard to get a sense of this if you never build a railway. So maybe my intention with the change I made to the "opt-out" path (track can now be built) is to try to let others appreciate the features of the map I most appreciate even if they can't see any appeal in the monthly "caterpillar" track allocation.


Maybe I took too much liberty, I will totally remove the ability to build track in that mode if you say. But for sure I'm interested in any extra detail you might have about what you were imagining the role of the "I have other plans" mode was meant to be. How would such a game progress? etc.. If it's to be: only play the stock market/acquisitions, then I think it needs clearer information that there is no chance to lay track ever. And therefore it's not a way to get out of the "historic" monthly "catepillar" track allocation.

And just to be clear none of what was being discussed was applying to the normal rotue.

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The "stockpile" concept has been in the game since before I touched it. Any event where you purchase track adds to this "stockpile", also some of the connection setup events. Your monthly allowance is deducted from this value when allocated to you at the start of the month. Also, any unused track at the end of the month is returned to this stockpile.

I think some of my wording is to blame for the confusion since I mentioned track pieces in one of the track purchase events (I had to make a couple new ones to cover all possible eventualities including to not get stuck in the "Other Connections" sequence). And now I realize why you only used the word "supplies." I will improve that.